Post by MacGyver on Feb 24, 2010 7:59:11 GMT -7
from Tiberius arms
Updated SA-8 Information
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
First I would like to thank the many members that supported our efforts to help player's who may have purchased an SA-8. Those who really know us realize that our motive on this is not profit, it is safety. Thanks as well to all of you have have contacted us to return these products, the efforts to promote safe play are commendable and the spirit that help further our sport.
Second, it was not my intention to post the safety warning and walk away as though that would be the end of it. As one of the members who called the office noted I was out of the office, actually on vacation with my family at Disney World. The fact is I was notified of this issue several hours before getting on a plane. I contacted Pepperball to make sure they knew who their $99 price was attracting, paintball players, not those interested in a less lethal launcher. Since they weren't acting on the matter I pulled time from my family to try and help a situation that was obviously snowballing fast.
Third, Tiberius Arms did not sell these products to any retail customer, Pepperball did, so we aren't trying to cover any liability issues we are trying to address a legitimate safety concern.
I will be honest, I have not read through all of the posts so I apologize if I don't address every question posed but I will do my best to cover the major/recurring issues that have been raised.
First, the SA-8’s are not paintball markers, they are Pepperball launchers, and despite what many are posting there is a big difference. While paintball markers without overpressure relief valves may exist they do not operate in the same manner as our markers. Most lack regulators all together and are therefore designed to operate using CO2 full pressure, our system is not. Most markers featuring a regulator are designed with either a relief valve, or a failure point (that is to say an o-ring/solenoid gasket, etc. that is designed to give out before over pressurization becomes a safety issue), the SA8 lacks this feature. It is important to note that many SA8's may be able to be adjusted to below 300fps, however in the event of a regulator o-ring failure they lack the ability to vent and maintain a velocity that is safe for paintball. {Note: Many have sited the Automag which is a decent example, most didn't realize the have a pressure relief (probably because they didn't want it tampered with). As many who have used an Automag with CO2, or turn the velocity way up can attest they begin leaking out of the back of the regulator, the SA8 does not.} I am not going to debate every form of every marker ever made, even if other markers were/are capable of this failure it does not mean we believe it is safe and most importantly they don't have our name on them.
Second, could we try to manufacture a relief assembly as a drop in replacement, yes, do we feel that is a prudent course of action, no, and here is why. First, the SA-8 Pepperball launchers are etched “Not for recreational use” and were colored in blue and orange (known training and less lethal color choices of the police and military) for a reason. If we make exceptions to this because paintballers thought they found a deal that was too good to be true (and was), we would be doing all of the agencies who use our less lethal equipment a disservice. Additionally we would be telling fields that saw the “Not for recreational use” warning to ignore it, a very dangerous precedent to set. We would also further the incorrect assumption that less lethal weapons can be safely used for paintball. Many are right about the fact that we could try to make this for very little and sell it for a lot to those who are stuck with a purchase that isn’t what they thought it was...this should show our motive is not profit. Despite many peoples assumptions we didn't over extend ourselves by selling to Pepperball, they have chosen to sell these products at a huge loss, which is there right.
Likewise our effort isn’t to reward paintball player’s who purchased SA-8’s, as it has become clear to me that most knew that it was not be a wise decision. We are not demanding anyone return their SA-8, they are a wonderful product for home defense or law enforcement applications. What we are doing is making sure that players who go out to participate in a fun day of play at their local field aren’t subject to unnecessary risk as a result of another player’s careless “good deal”. So many have asked if we are going to "tell fields about these"? Yes, we have a professional and ethical obligation to do so to protect players and field owners. We make no apologies about this point and are amazed the risks people are willing to take to I have experienced a lot of “too good to be true(s)” in my time and can’t remember one where I was offered the chance to get out of that bad decision with nearly as much as we have tried to offer paintball player’s who purchased an SA-8.
As a result of speaking with many SA8 purchasers, reading these forums, and attempting to provide as many opt outs as possible we have decided to offer a $50 gift certificate for those wishing to return only the SA8 launcher. As most have noted the magazines alone are worth $100, so this provides a potentially better fit for many.
Gift Certificates are redeemable directly through Tiberius Arms (all products priced at MAP). I will be posting a complete list of products/prices shortly.
I respect that not everyone will agree with our efforts, or believe our motives but as a company we are really trying to do an honorable thing.
Attached Files 2010 MAP Pricing.pdf (158.8 KB, 30 views)
www.mcarterbrown.com/forums/attachments/paintball-news/13974d1266942808-updated-sa-8-information-2010-map-pricing.pdf
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Last edited by TiberiusArms; Today at 11:33 AM.
Updated SA-8 Information
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
First I would like to thank the many members that supported our efforts to help player's who may have purchased an SA-8. Those who really know us realize that our motive on this is not profit, it is safety. Thanks as well to all of you have have contacted us to return these products, the efforts to promote safe play are commendable and the spirit that help further our sport.
Second, it was not my intention to post the safety warning and walk away as though that would be the end of it. As one of the members who called the office noted I was out of the office, actually on vacation with my family at Disney World. The fact is I was notified of this issue several hours before getting on a plane. I contacted Pepperball to make sure they knew who their $99 price was attracting, paintball players, not those interested in a less lethal launcher. Since they weren't acting on the matter I pulled time from my family to try and help a situation that was obviously snowballing fast.
Third, Tiberius Arms did not sell these products to any retail customer, Pepperball did, so we aren't trying to cover any liability issues we are trying to address a legitimate safety concern.
I will be honest, I have not read through all of the posts so I apologize if I don't address every question posed but I will do my best to cover the major/recurring issues that have been raised.
First, the SA-8’s are not paintball markers, they are Pepperball launchers, and despite what many are posting there is a big difference. While paintball markers without overpressure relief valves may exist they do not operate in the same manner as our markers. Most lack regulators all together and are therefore designed to operate using CO2 full pressure, our system is not. Most markers featuring a regulator are designed with either a relief valve, or a failure point (that is to say an o-ring/solenoid gasket, etc. that is designed to give out before over pressurization becomes a safety issue), the SA8 lacks this feature. It is important to note that many SA8's may be able to be adjusted to below 300fps, however in the event of a regulator o-ring failure they lack the ability to vent and maintain a velocity that is safe for paintball. {Note: Many have sited the Automag which is a decent example, most didn't realize the have a pressure relief (probably because they didn't want it tampered with). As many who have used an Automag with CO2, or turn the velocity way up can attest they begin leaking out of the back of the regulator, the SA8 does not.} I am not going to debate every form of every marker ever made, even if other markers were/are capable of this failure it does not mean we believe it is safe and most importantly they don't have our name on them.
Second, could we try to manufacture a relief assembly as a drop in replacement, yes, do we feel that is a prudent course of action, no, and here is why. First, the SA-8 Pepperball launchers are etched “Not for recreational use” and were colored in blue and orange (known training and less lethal color choices of the police and military) for a reason. If we make exceptions to this because paintballers thought they found a deal that was too good to be true (and was), we would be doing all of the agencies who use our less lethal equipment a disservice. Additionally we would be telling fields that saw the “Not for recreational use” warning to ignore it, a very dangerous precedent to set. We would also further the incorrect assumption that less lethal weapons can be safely used for paintball. Many are right about the fact that we could try to make this for very little and sell it for a lot to those who are stuck with a purchase that isn’t what they thought it was...this should show our motive is not profit. Despite many peoples assumptions we didn't over extend ourselves by selling to Pepperball, they have chosen to sell these products at a huge loss, which is there right.
Likewise our effort isn’t to reward paintball player’s who purchased SA-8’s, as it has become clear to me that most knew that it was not be a wise decision. We are not demanding anyone return their SA-8, they are a wonderful product for home defense or law enforcement applications. What we are doing is making sure that players who go out to participate in a fun day of play at their local field aren’t subject to unnecessary risk as a result of another player’s careless “good deal”. So many have asked if we are going to "tell fields about these"? Yes, we have a professional and ethical obligation to do so to protect players and field owners. We make no apologies about this point and are amazed the risks people are willing to take to I have experienced a lot of “too good to be true(s)” in my time and can’t remember one where I was offered the chance to get out of that bad decision with nearly as much as we have tried to offer paintball player’s who purchased an SA-8.
As a result of speaking with many SA8 purchasers, reading these forums, and attempting to provide as many opt outs as possible we have decided to offer a $50 gift certificate for those wishing to return only the SA8 launcher. As most have noted the magazines alone are worth $100, so this provides a potentially better fit for many.
Gift Certificates are redeemable directly through Tiberius Arms (all products priced at MAP). I will be posting a complete list of products/prices shortly.
I respect that not everyone will agree with our efforts, or believe our motives but as a company we are really trying to do an honorable thing.
Attached Files 2010 MAP Pricing.pdf (158.8 KB, 30 views)
www.mcarterbrown.com/forums/attachments/paintball-news/13974d1266942808-updated-sa-8-information-2010-map-pricing.pdf
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Last edited by TiberiusArms; Today at 11:33 AM.
